From Queen to King....and full latex? hybrid? 'plant based' memo foam? adjustable base?

Hello, thank you for making this a reliable space for non biased info and vetted expert opinions on a complicated topic! As my husband and I contemplate going from a 10 yo S&F Queen to a King size bed, all the options are on the table. After months of reading and watching videos, I think I’m closer to a direction but would appreciate some feedback, confirmation or anything I’ve missed?

We are: A 52 yo 5’1" <110 lb inverted triangle with flare ups due to hypermobility, low back pain, sciatic nerve pain, mild sleep apnea, occasional but severe GERD and a less finicky 54 yo 5’7" 185 lb triangle with occasional shoulder pain and low back pain. Both back/side combo sleepers. Add one little dog sleeping on the outside of one human, another little in the middle, a cat on and off the bed on the outside of the other human, and a much more respectful 55 lb dog who luckily prefers his own bed until morning when the whole crew piles on for coffee time.

Our priorities:

  1. More space!
  2. Supporting a company dedicated to responsible, sustainable and ethical/humane sourcing and production processes that are respectful of both animals and humans.
  3. Non toxic materials. Organic nice to have, not necessary to have. The feel and look of high quality, natural materials preferred.
  4. Edge support–we are accustomed to decent edge support but most importantly, we desire maximum usage of the entire bed space.
  5. Minimal motion transfer.
  6. Temperature regulating. It’s that time of life.
  7. Firmness–I’m looking for the same feeling in a mattress I like in my footwear (anyone ever use this analogy before? :grin:) For me, that is a shoe with strong arch and ankle support which provides the reassuring feeling of stability and structure for my hypermobile joints. That’s a Birk in the summer and Doc Marten’s with a cushy all wool sock in the winter that fills in all the gaps and provides the tactile sensation of tight swaddling and cradling.

Our limitations:

  1. Budget is flexible but I was hoping, and after reading many of the experts here it seems perfectly possible, to find a high quality mattress in what I would call the mid range, or max $4k, especially considering we will need to shell out for a base, likely a topper, and new bedding, pillows, etc. since we are changing sizes. We like sleeping in linen sheets with a wool comforter (currently Cultiver and Holy Lamb), so those purchases won’t be inexpensive. That said, it’s worth it to us to invest in something we can get a good 10 years out of, at least.
  2. Online shopping–this may very well be a sight unseen purchase as we are in a midwest city with few opportunities for trying latex or latex hybrid beds. This makes us nervous about a final sale purchase with no option for refund/exchange if we take a gamble on something.

Current direction:

As of today, I’m thinking coil + latex hybrid rather than full latex, due to the desire for a strong support core and the additional airflow aspect of pocketed coils. Today I’ve been researching the Birch Luxe and the Plank Firm Natural (based on recommendations I’ve seen by the experts here). I would likely do an additional topper on either one but would want to consider whether that was all wool, wool + latex, how thick, etc. I’m in part looking at these options because despite my light weight and both of us being combo back/side sleepers, I think a firm bed with a pressure relieving surface layer may be the best thing for my body. My partner thinks he prefers a “firm” mattress, as well.

But in past days, I have also considered and made inquiries into CozyPure, FloBeds, Naturepedic, Obasan, Omi, Magniflex, and Winston’s. In store, we have only had the opportunity to experience Avocado and Aireloom. All Avocado models (they did not have their full latex mattress for us to try) felt a bit soft to me. Aireloom felt nice, very supportive and like high quality but I don’t know if their deal is a bit of greenwashing, and the prices are fairly high.

Next question is the base. Do we make all the changes at once? Go all in on an adjustable base now (we’re not even sure if this is something we would love given we’ve never had one but it seems like it’s almost a given choice these days) or start with a mattress and a simple base or foundation for now and add an adjustable base down the road. I have been in touch with a local retailer who has offered a good price on a Malouf 755 split king, and he would deliver and setup. Purchasing from someone local would be a reassurance for us.

Meanwhile, I’m tired of deliberating and ready to make a decision pronto. I’m waking up in pain everyday as our current mattress is sagging rather significantly now. Seems I’m sleeping better on the near hard as a rock mattress in our guest bedroom (Google translate from the tag tells us it’s just a Serta) with a pretty old, low profile wool mattress pad, both hand me downs but with less wear than ours that were shipped to us from Tokyo by my husband’s brother.

Any thoughts or recommendations would be much appreciated! Thank you for all of your generous knowledge sharing. I’ve already learned so much from many of you.

Hi Cardinal52.

I appreciate your sense of humor but also the fact that you’ve got things pretty well established in terms of what you need and want from a new mattress.

I’m not sure where in the Midwest you are, but if you’re anywhere near Chicago you may find My Green Mattress to be another worthy contender in your search.

If I’m being totally honest, it looks like you’re in a battle between quality products. You’ve been researching and testing beds that are comparable in terms of quality/durability! That can make things harder, honestly. But the good news is, truthfully, you’ll be choosing a quality product from basically any of these brands. We do favor CozyPure and FloBeds from these offerings, of course.

Indeed :slight_smile: The quality of the bed isn’t going to be different than the similar competitors at lower price ranges, but that said, if you love it, you love it. And, my dad always says don’t buy anything unless you love it.

I’d honestly be more inclined to do this…that said, you did mention that one of you has GERD and the adjustable mattress + base could be useful in that regard.

Would they let you test it prior to purchase?

If you can narrow down to your top 3ish contenders we’d be happy to do side by side comparisons and pros and cons with you!

NikkiTMU

Thank you @NikkiTMU! So, we managed to get ourselves to a nearby Denver Mattress and a Macy’s today. At Denver Mattress, we gravitated to the Aireloom. Sadly, their own Telluride, their only offering with any latex, is not particularly attractive in any way. They are redesigning the line and honestly, I really just wanted to check it out in order to experience something with latex but there is obviously no comparison to any of the higher quality hybrid or full latex brands we have researched. We did try the Tempurpedic and others, and are now quite certain we have no interest in memory foam.

At Macy’s however, we were able to experience the King Koil Natural line. This is the first real contender! These are hybrids. We liked the Orchid Firm, and I have to admit the Plush felt pretty nice as well. At least, I kept finding myself staying on it longer. The King Koil, compared to the S&F’s current version of the same Lux Estate Firm we’ve been on for ten years, won me over without question. The feeling and look of the materials (cotton encasement and hand tufting, I believe) is far preferable in my opinion to the S&F. Price is comparable.

We also tried Macy’s Hotel Collection Shifman mattress. I expected more for the price. I do realize with Shifman that maybe the price reflects the potential longevity and durability of the product, but neither of us were in any way amazed by the feel. The King Koil Natural Orchid was again far superior for us in this way.

So, we’re left with researching King Koil Natural and not finding much in terms of reviews. As you know, they lack the transparency with their materials and construction, both in terms of quality and responsible sourcing, that would give us more confidence. I question durability over time. Also, Macy’s return policy includes a 15% disposal (a real turn off) + $125 pickup fee (acceptable).

I sure wish someone in our city (Cincinnati, OH) carried the King Koil all latex collection, or ANY all latex brands so that we could try something…anything. Our next closest cities would be Columbus (maybe Naturepedic here), Indianapolis, Louisville or Lexington. Not sure if you are aware of any brands worth exploring we might find in those cities.

So if anyone has thoughts on how the King Koil Natural line compares to any of the brands I’ve mentioned previously (which we are unable to experience in person), we would appreciate hearing them! I’m so tired of the search, I’m ready to pull the trigger since the mattress felt pretty awesome but I’m bummed we are so limited by our in person options.

Also, I’m still not entirely convinced on hybrid vs. all latex. Any ideas there? We’re looking for that firm, supportive core feeling + soft, cushiony pressure relief layer. Can you get this in all latex as much as you can in a hybrid? We want as little motion transfer as possible as well.

CozyPure, as one example, looks so lovely but it’s hard for us to believe it’s going to be everything we desire at that price point, and what if all latex just ends up not working for us? We have no way of trying it first! Same with all the others I’ve mentioned.

On the positive side, it seems our preferences and our bodies/sleep positions are similar enough that while I had been so smitten with mattresses which allow for dual customization (and I still am), I don’t think it is absolutely necessary in our case.

Ugh. Thank you in advance for any guidance you might offer!

Just read through the incredible 10+ year review of CozyPure by @TDI_Hoo! I am so tempted to take a chance on the CozyPure and be done with this mattress madness. We may visit another Macy’s today to try the King Koil again, and also their Paramount Nature Spa mattresses, which I didn’t even realize they had. Also thinking we should got to an OMF and try their Serenity latex. This may be the ONLY all latex mattress to be experienced in our entire city.

I do really enjoy the tufted surfaces of the King Koil. It feels plush and luxurious so I know I would be giving that up with CozyPure or other similar latex manufacturers…but maybe the LaNoodle topper gives a similar feel? Planning a second call today to CozyPure (I spoke with Hans briefly several days ago) with husband present to see if we can get a little further in terms of confidence.

Both my husband and I felt like the King Koil Orchid was promising. It felt very nice. He is quite risk averse and is struggling with the notion of us investing in any mattress we can’t feel first, so we’ll see.

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The LaNoodle topper and Pillows offer quite a different feel than a solid latex. I have a Baa-Noodle and Noodle pillows. I find them much more comfortable than a solid latex pillow. The noodles displace your weight somewhat differently, with less bounce, a characteristic that I find much more comfortable. You dont completely sink like you would with viscoelastic memory foam, and you will not feel like you are sleeping in a furnace.

I happen to view the KK Orchid the other day. It appears to be a very nice mattress. I just dont like that they dont release any of the specs, although they do list the layers.

Just remember to check reviews off site. Folks with legitimate issues will shout them loud and clear after 9months or a year or two into their experience. Plus you want to work with a company that will service you when you need it. Everyone is going to have a trial and/or return policy of some type. That does not mean you could not negotiate, in writing, some other terms.

As long as you have tried similar latex mattresses, buying without feeling first, in my opinion, is not a big deal. But I am someone who believes that if I am dealing with someone who is actually listening to my questions and concerns, and has a good reputation, I am comfortable with that. Typically, since I like a firm mattress, it is easier to eliminate the softer ones. For those who are in the middle firmness range, more carefully scrutinized testing may be warranted.
whereas a medium firmness can vary between the folks labeling their mattress firmness. This could be true for any firmness label, but particularly in the medium area. Most seasoned professionals, will know what you are asking for.

The Noodle topper and pillows do have that luxurious feel when resting on them.

You should continue the conversation with them and I am certain they will steer you in the right direction.

All the best,

Maverick

Thank you @Maverick! Looks like we just found a local retailer (Big Red) who has an Eclipse Embrace Sleep mattress on their floor. A search for this bed on the TMU forum isn’t bringing much up for me. Eclipse website shows this to be an all latex mattress, although they don’t even appear to specify Talalay or Dunlop. BUT, we will head that way today so that we can experience an all latex bed, in addition to a visit to a local Original Mattress Factory to try their Serenity. If we can at least lie on an all latex bed for the first time in our lives, this will be a big part of the puzzle for us. If we like the feel, then we would at least have that knowledge as we look at CozyPure, FloBeds, or several others.

The KK Orchid did feel very nice to both of us. And my husband is a creature of habit, thinking he just wants a “traditional” bed, which this seemed to satisfy for him. I just wish there was more transparency and I was finding some glowing reviews here in TMU or elsewhere. But first to answer the question, do we want a hybrid or all latex. Hopefully, we’ll be better informed after more trials today!

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Eclipse is a brand manufactured by BIA Bedding industries of America.

They actually manufacture excellent mattresses, in some cases importing wool, cotton and other materials from Britain in an effort to source and maintain the original specs for those made in England, such as the Millbrook Line.

I have a friend in California who sells the Eclipse line, he may be able to offer more insight to the Embrace as I am more familiar with the Glacier.

Regarding Shifman. They are one of the best mattresses made out there today. They do make some of them slightly different for Macy’s, Neiman and Bloomies. They tend to incorporate a foam edge perimeter support, which I find less effective and less long lasting.

Speaking with Shifman at the Trade show in July, they said this is a Retailer’s request, not a standard Shifman build as they typically make their mattresses with edge to edge coil systems. While they do use the same quality materials for their exclusive retail partners, many retailers find that the edge foam support provides an initial “wow” to customers when they sit on that initial firm edge, and it also makes the mattress look more square with nicer edges from a cosmetic appearance when on the showroom floor.

Honestly, based on your own comments……go with King Koil Orchid. You have already mentioned it 4-5 times. Try latex and if you are not blown away….go with KK Orchid. Make sure you lay on it for at least 15 mins straight!

Fwiw….I almost bought a King Koil Pure Bliss latex Brook Firm (all Talalay).

John

Thanks, @BillyIdol. I appreciate your straight to the point approach. Unfortunately, we don’t have the opportunity to try KK’s all latex line.

So, what did you end up buying instead of the KK?

Thank you again, @Maverick!

So–post our in-person experience–here’s the deal with Big Red and Eclipse. BIA helped them build out their store into the space next to their existing showroom in exchange for them carrying the entire BIA collection. Not only did we see the Embrace Sleep all latex (they tell us it’s Dunlop), but also Glacier, Millbrook, Harvest (their answer to Avocado), and everything else. They are pleased that they are the only place in Cincinnati where consumers can find an all latex bed.

Our minds are now opened to the all latex options out there. We found the Embrace Sleep models (they had four, including a hybrid w/some kind of “plant based” form) to be generally supportive and pressure relieving. But we’re now fairly convinced that if we go all latex, we would work with a manufacturer where we can benefit from full customization, whether side to side, zoned, ability to swap out layers within a trial period, and/or replace layers over time. As pricey as latex is (including the Eclipse), why choose a brand where we don’t have those options?

Fortunately, this same store also carries Aireloom and King Koil Natural. Therefore, in close proximity, we were able to compare the all latex Eclipse Embrace Sleep with the Aireloom (we liked the M2 Plush the best) and the King Koil Natural (they had the Angeles Crest Bliss Top Plush (which we think is the equivalent of what they create for Macy’s where they call it the Orchid Plush).

May I ask your opinion on these options? Aireloom vs King Koil Natural vs a customizable, all natural brand such as Naturepedic, CozyPure, FloBeds, Nest Bedding, Sleep EZ, etc.?

Also, this retailer (Big Red) carries BedTech as their adjustable base option. Any opinions on this (vs. say a Malouf or L&P)?

I know @BillyIdol is suggesting I just stop it already and go with the KK and be done with it. He might be right, but still weighing the options…

Hi! It may be worth the trip to Columbus to try out a Naturepedic before you make your decision. I know that you have already talked to our staff member, Roger, so you understand the advantages there. You can swap layers after purchase if you need to tweak it - and if your needs change down the road, it is nice to be able to replace and pay for one or two components rather that pay for a whole new mattress. Their hybrids, such as the EOS, might be worth a look.
Best of luck to you - let us know if we can help.

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Cardinal,

Im was a huge Tempurpedic fanboy. Im on a worn out Tempurpedic now. I laid down on my back for 15 minutes on a Tempur Luxe Adapt Firm 2.0. I love the conforming feel, but the lower back support simply wasnt there. Memory foam is literally a moving target.

I eliminated latex because it wasnt that conforming. Im not even that sure about the lower back support.

I did like the Aireloom M1 Firm and Streamline Firm. Good support for sure. Fairly good with pressure relief.

I went up to Ultrabed/BackScience. I was blown away by the spinal alignment plus softness of the BackScience 2 and 3. My spinal alignment (back) on 2 was great….it was ok on the 3. Sidesleeping was good on the 2. Im 80% back sleeper and 20% side. I wanted to optimize my most used sleeping position. Laying on my back on the BS 2 seemed like “perfect spinal alignment while being atop a soft cloud”. I feel it has great spinal alignment (lower back support) plus great conforming pressure relief. To top it off, the top layer can be customized. I should get my BS 2 on Dec 30, 2024.

I felt that the Aireloom Preferred collection is a close 2nd place. Im sure many folks would like Aireloom over BS because mattresses are subjective. I am ready to move on from my Tempur……love the pressure relief, but it is simply too soft now.

John

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Yes, thank you! Roger has been helpful. He has priced out two of the three EOS (including the all latex Trilux) and an Obasan for us. We’re still struggling with purchasing anything we can’t try first. Thanks for the suggestion to head to Columbus. We had hoped to avoid it but we are indeed contemplating making the drive.

Thanks, John. I wish we could try the Back Science beds!

We did have a chance to experience the KK SmartLife today. It is of course an entirely different animal from the mattresses I’ve discussed thus far. But never having tried anything like a Sleep Number bed, it was fascinating and I did wonder if would be beneficial for back pain.

Personally, I don’t think I’m a fan of memory foam so no Tempurpedic for us. In the end, all of this really is so subjective.

Air beds?

Sleep Number has lots if hammocking. But there are a few that have 3 air chambers. Therefore less hammocking. Air Pedic was one of them. I think Air Pedic is with Custom Comfort now. I still think Aireloom or BackScience are way better than air beds.

Ive heard that most air bed owners find their perfect number and then dont change it.

John

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@TheCleanBedroom Brian, since you carry both Naturepedic and Aireloom, may I ask you to help us compare them?

We have experienced the Aireloom. A few days ago we liked the M2 Plush, yesterday it was the M1 Firm, so we would clearly have to sort that out. We do have a BMI differential of 21 to 28, so it makes sense we’re running into the usual scenario where I (the lighter one) am finding myself enjoying the more plush surfaces, at least upon first impression. But generally we are not THAT different in our overall preferences and body sizes, so I think we could work out agreeing to one mattress if we choose.

We have not yet experienced the Naturepedic. The closest I would say we have felt in person in the Avocado, and the all latex Eclipse Embrace Sleep.

Besides the obvious differences between the two (customization, type of materials, transparency, etc.) how would you compare the overall quality, including comfort, longevity and durability, between Naturepedic and Aireloom? Do you see them as appealing to two completely different customer bases, with the Aireloom being a more affordably priced option for a customer who might choose a ViSpring or a Hastens, for instance, were it in their budget, while the Naturepedic is in a completely separate vertical of options?

I don’t know if we are unusual in considering both brands. Perhaps it is because we are still trying to understand what we want, and we can actually try the Aireloom without a road trip. We do worry a bit that the Aireloom seems to be undergoing a huge marketing push that makes us skeptical about a bunch of hype, although the M1 and M2 undeniably feel great in store.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts!

We have offered Naturepedic since 2010, but we are just starting to offer Aireloom this year. So unfortunately, we do not have a long track record to compare with the Aireloom.

Customers looking at Naturepedic often value the customizability, comfort, and natural materials. Aireloom customers often value the feel and comfort - as you did.

We have found Naturepedic products to be quite durable - the EOS mattresses and on up carry a 25-year warranty, while Aireloom offers a 10-year warranty on their products. The warranty length can often give you an idea of how long the manufacturer expects their product to last.

The Naturepedic EOS, as you know, has five different levels of firmness - and you can customize each side. Additionally, the EOS mattresses offer the option to swap a layer within 90 days.

With the EOS, if your needs change 10 years down the road (back or hip issues emerge, change in sleep position, weight gain or loss, pregnancy, etc.) it is much less expensive to swap out a component to tweak the firmness than to replace the whole mattress.

All of that said, only you can know if something is comfortable for you. And as you said, the best way to know is by trying the mattress out.

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